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+---- Thread: ERTMS (/showthread.php?tid=94)
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ERTMS - KenD - 22-08-2008
I would like to know where I could get some information on the way Signalling principles are set out for ERTMS.
Traditionally control tables have been used for classical signalling but would these be appropriate (with modifications) for ERTMS?
Also an example of the data constructs would be great.
regards
KenD
RE: ERTMS - mangeshwakankar - 22-08-2008
Dear ken,
I have prepared some document. The information was downloaded from some website. I hope you would atleast come to know about ERTMS.
Mangesh
KenD Wrote:I would like to know where I could get some information on the way Signalling principles are set out for ERTMS.
Traditionally control tables have been used for classical signalling but would these be appropriate (with modifications) for ERTMS?
Also an example of the data constructs would be great.
regards
KenD
RE: ERTMS - PJW - 22-08-2008
KenD Wrote:I would like to know where I could get some information on the way Signalling principles are set out for ERTMS.
Traditionally control tables have been used for classical signalling but would these be appropriate (with modifications) for ERTMS?
Also an example of the data constructs would be great.
regards
KenD
ERTMS is about the "air-gap" between a train and the infrastructure- the messages which pass via radio or balise. It is perhaps analagous to the way a driver reads a lineside signal to ensure that the driver can correctly interpret the signal (colour, route inicator, flashing etc). The majority of signalling principles (certainly those shown on a Control Table) are about the interlocking requirements which are not about ERTMS per se. That is not to say that introduction of ERTMS may not mean that it is possible / beneficial / advisable to change from historic practices with lineside signalling but there are not "ERTMS Principles" as such.
So yes a Control Table very like, or vaguely like lineside signalling is applicable to ERTMS level 2 and this reflects the interlocking controls. The RBC also does stuff and either this would need to be added on the Control tables or depicted in a different manner. This is a subject I could discuss at length but I suspect it may not be of particular use in the IRSE exam and would require a base level of understanding of both conventional Principles and ERTMS functionalities that most here would not have.
PJW
RE: ERTMS - KenD - 22-08-2008
mangeshwakankar Wrote:Dear ken,
I have prepared some document. The information was downloaded from some website. I hope you would atleast come to know about ERTMS.
Mangesh
KenD Wrote:I would like to know where I could get some information on the way Signalling principles are set out for ERTMS.
Traditionally control tables have been used for classical signalling but would these be appropriate (with modifications) for ERTMS?
Also an example of the data constructs would be great.
regards
KenD
Thanks for the info. That is the best Document I have seen on ERTMS for explaining what it is.
KenD
RE: ERTMS - KenD - 22-08-2008
PJW Wrote:KenD Wrote:I would like to know where I could get some information on the way Signalling principles are set out for ERTMS.
Traditionally control tables have been used for classical signalling but would these be appropriate (with modifications) for ERTMS?
Also an example of the data constructs would be great.
regards
KenD
ERTMS is about the "air-gap" between a train and the infrastructure- the messages which pass via radio or balise. It is perhaps analagous to the way a driver reads a lineside signal to ensure that the driver can correctly interpret the signal (colour, route inicator, flashing etc). The majority of signalling principles (certainly those shown on a Control Table) are about the interlocking requirements which are not about ERTMS per se. That is not to say that introduction of ERTMS may not mean that it is possible / beneficial / advisable to change from historic practices with lineside signalling but there are not "ERTMS Principles" as such.
So yes a Control Table very like, or vaguely like lineside signalling is applicable to ERTMS level 2 and this reflects the interlocking controls. The RBC also does stuff and either this would need to be added on the Control tables or depicted in a different manner. This is a subject I could discuss at length but I suspect it may not be of particular use in the IRSE exam and would require a base level of understanding of both conventional Principles and ERTMS functionalities that most here would not have.
PJW
Assuming I have a satisfactory base knowledge do you know where I could obtain further information?
RE: ERTMS - Peter - 22-08-2008
Try the official website for info on ERTMS.
RE: ERTMS - PJW - 22-08-2008
Peter Wrote:Try the official website for info on ERTMS.
Yes this is good info re ERTMS and certainly you can also download all the Technical Standards for Interoperability (helpful if you have difficulty getting to sleep at night) but these won't tell you how to design a mod 2 layout with ETCS nor give any hint re mod 3 Control Tables. I have also tried to incorporate a little in the mod 2 Study Pack and I might try to get the tie to extend this as I promised it for next year but have yet to start doing.
The truth is that the rules even for the Cambrian implementation are not yet 100% fixed yet; the important thing to recognise is that they will be significantly different to Rome-Naples high speed line for example.
The train is basically told how far the driver is authorised to proceed with the speed profile that must be respected along the way and the place by which it must guarantee to stop based on its own knowledge of its own speed and braking ability and the gradient information with which it is supplied within the MA. Thereafter the train is responsible for itself; similarly the rules that the infrastructure uses to create such a message is its own concern. ETCS is primarily to ensure that one country's / supplier's train is compatible with another's infrastructure because of a common understanding of the message format- note that a train which crosses a border may then suddenly operate differently as a new set of national values apply. To think of ETCS as one set of signalling principles is to completely misunderstand the situation. As and when we harmonise the human operational rules and the interlocking rules, perhaps common signalling principles will emerge- but that is a long way off and it may never be appropriate to have common principles between lines of very different usage.
Very good stuff here for a module 1 or module 2 written question- indeed have a look at that module 3 2008 mock exam paper re the Signet weekend since there are two question on it to which this overall subject is highly relevant .......
NOTE FOR 2009:
Lots of info re ETCS in Appendix V of the Module 2 Study Pack.
I believe that all exam particpants will be receiving a DVD containing all available Study Packs so hopefully this year will be available to all.
RE: ERTMS - Motty - 07-09-2008
Excuse me I'm having a dunce moment. In the ERTMS notes it talks about 'existing CC-systems'
what does CC stand for in this context please?
Angie
RE: ERTMS - Peter - 08-09-2008
Motty Wrote:Excuse me I'm having a dunce moment. In the ERTMS notes it talks about 'existing CC-systems'
what does CC stand for in this context please?
Angie
Not sure which doco you are referring to, but normally it is "Command and Control". Try those words in the context and see if it makes sense.
RE: ERTMS - SARVESH KUMAR - 25-08-2011
(22-08-2008, 02:07 PM)mangeshwakankar Wrote: Dear ken,
I have prepared some document. The information was downloaded from some website. I hope you would atleast come to know about ERTMS.
Mangesh
KenD Wrote:I would like to know where I could get some information on the way Signalling principles are set out for ERTMS.
Traditionally control tables have been used for classical signalling but would these be appropriate (with modifications) for ERTMS?
Also an example of the data constructs would be great.
regards
KenD
Kend,
This file is not opened, please other file attached
with regards
sarvesh kumar