Metro Layout

[adikarina]

Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone is planning to do Module 2 and do the Metro layout. I was planning to doing a couple of layouts and then compare them with someone else's layout.
My main concern is how much must be done of the layout to ensure that the examiner can see you understand the process and principles of signalling a layout.

Any hints and tips from LU background people will be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Regards
Aditi

[PJW]

Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone is planning to do Module 2 and do the Metro layout. I was planning to doing a couple of layouts and then compare them with someone else's layout.
My main concern is how much must be done of the layout to ensure that the examiner can see you understand the process and principles of signalling a layout.

Any hints and tips from LU background people will be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Regards
Aditi

I do hope you get a useful response to this; it seems to have been several years since any student attempted the Metro layout and there also seem to be quite a few people from that environment that want to do module 2...... Afraid though that I myself do not have the relevant experience

I have just thought of someone that I might put a little gentle pressure upon to help; so I 'll give that a go as and when the opportunity arises.

Do suggest you try enquiring through your management chain- obviously if you can use this forum to get an interested group together then that may help; I have heard that there have been thoughts over the last couple of years to re-start a former LU training course but not sure whether it has yet got anywhere.

Best of luck

[nicklawford]

I am currently searching for some London underground material for myself and if/when I locate it I will [if possible] make it available.

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Nick

[nicklawford]

I am currently searching for some London underground material for myself and if/when I locate it I will [if possible] make it available.

Further,
aside from the above material - which I still have to locate - as I posted under Module 1 thread I have come from outside the railway industry ... and as yet have not sat any IRSE exams.

Digressing from my current intent of initially taking Modules 1 and 7, one of the things I always do is read around work matters.

When I joined the industry - on the Jubilee line - I was astounded to discover the north end of the Jubilee Line has mechanical interlockings (Westinghouse ''V'' frames). Not only the Jubilee, but a significant proportion of the entire London underground. In trying to understand why, a number of IRSE technical papers yield a lot of information.

My point about this post in this thread is that I have already found a terrific amount of very useful information in past IRSE papers. Even though the list below includes papers right back to 1942 it is still relevant to today London underground. They may sound out of date, but I have found them a very useful means to ramp up for day-to-day work, and I am sure help form a platform if/when I ever did decide in time to attempt Module 2.

Anyway the list of papers I found useful are in IRSE Proceedings as follows:

1942 - Dell - ''Power Worked Lever Remote Control Signalling System''

1958 - Dell - ''Automatic Junction Working and Route Setting by Programme''

1961 - Hadaway - ''London Transport Methods for the Control and Locking of Junctions''

1966 - Smith - ''Victoria Line Signalling Principles''

1967 - Wager - ''London Transport Railway Control Rooms''


Perhaps a bit off specific subjects for any one module - but proves the value of background reading.

Hope this is of some use to somebody.


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Nick

[PJW]

When I joined the industry - on the Jubilee line - I was astounded to discover the north end of the Jubilee Line has mechanical interlockings (Westinghouse ''V'' frames). Not only the Jubilee, but a significant proportion of the entire London underground. In trying to understand why, a number of IRSE technical papers yield a lot of information.

Anyway the list of papers I found useful are in IRSE Proceedings as follows:

When I was new to the industry I went on a visit to the new Piccadilly line control centre (I think). Having been on BR for a bit I was well aware that plenty of mechanical interlockings left (a certain deputy chief of the Western Region and FIRSE told his graduates in 1981 that by the year 2000 there would be none left- that prediction turned out to be way off the mark!). What was suprising to me thought was at one end of the room there were computers (not sure quite what from memory perhaps PDP11s, certainly "filing cabinet" type), these drove outputs that seemed to be combined by some form of diode logic (I recall vertical busbars one side of a frame, horizontal busbars the other linked across as appropriate by big chunky diodes- reminded me of the capaictor discharge system I had implememented on a model railway for controlling the right combination of points having selected a route). Further down the room it was electic valves controlling compressed air that then physically operated the frame (and I think the locking was still purely mechanical). Seemed to go back from mid 1980s to mid 1880s as one walked down the room; someone who knows may say that it is still like that now. Of course one advanatage is that when there is a failure, then the trains can be kept running by taking the "air of the frame" and a person operating the rotating levers directly.

Re the IRSE papers; don't forget that, thanks to the Australians, you can purchase for an extremely reasonable sum (I think

[nicklawford]

computers (not sure quite what from memory perhaps PDP11s, certainly "filing cabinet" type), these drove outputs ...
...
... controlling compressed air that then physically operated the frame (and I think the locking was still purely mechanical).

Exactly how it is still done on most lines - even with 1967 Victoria Line type ATO the interlockings were and still are mechanical (as mentioned in Wednesday evenings paper).

AIUI the last V-frame was commissioned as late as 1999 (Waterloo).

[quote]
Re the IRSE papers; don't forget that, thanks to the Australians, you can purchase for an extremely reasonable sum (I think

[nicklawford]

[quote]
Re the IRSE papers; don't forget that, thanks to the Australians, you can purchase for an extremely reasonable sum (I think

[nicklawford]

Module 2 and do the Metro layout. I

Any hints and tips from LU background people will be very much appreciated.

Might I ask if you are working with the LU Standards i.e.

1-194 Signalling Control - Functional Requirements
1-195 Signalling - Functional Requirements
1-196 Signalling and Signalling Control - Concept and Requirements
1-197 Signalling and Signalling Control - Design and Implementation

1-197 states the overlap and sighting calculation formula, and I think between all of them all the necessary distances.

These are all reasonably up to date with current requirements - they were revised in April 2008.

If it were permitted I would have attached them to this message for the benefit of everyone - but right now I don't have the necessary authorisation to do so.


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Nick

[ananthudu]

Hi All,

I am also planning to do the metro layout (Module 2) as i have worked more than 3 years for metro projects. I have worked on Westinghouse DTG-R projects for 2 years and also i have done some scheme simulations (headway calculations, RORI, AIRI etc.) by using tool. I feel doing calculations manually is a bit tough for me.

Now iam bit confused whether shall i follow WRSL DTG-R practise or Thales SelTrac Moving block technology. I don't have much exposure on Thales SelTrac system headway calculations but i am confident on WRSL DTG-R system.

Hope I can help you & vice versa....

Hi peter, i hope you can recognise me as I met you in YM AGM this january. Any suggestions/ideas from you?

Module 2 and do the Metro layout. I
Any hints and tips from LU background people will be very much appreciated.

Might I ask if you are working with the LU Standards
--
Nick

[PJW]

Hi All,
I am also planning to do the metro layout (Module 2) as i have worked more than 3 years for metro projects. I have worked on Westinghouse DTG-R projects for 2 years and also i have done some scheme simulations (headway calculations, RORI, AIRI etc.) by using tool. I feel doing calculations manually is a bit tough for me.

Now iam bit confused whether shall i follow WRSL DTG-R practise or Thales SelTrac Moving block technology. I don't have much exposure on Thales SelTrac system headway calculations but i am confident on WRSL DTG-R system.

Hope I can help you & vice versa....

Hi peter, i hope you can recognise me as I met you in YM AGM this january. Any suggestions/ideas from you?

Indeed: I think that you also met "Peter" on that occasion.

The truth is that few have done the Metro layout in recent years; it really would be good to see more attempting it. I think it is partly a matter of training availability in the UK that metro people find it easier to learn to do the mainline layout.

Given what you say "I don't have much exposure on Thales SelTrac system headway calculations" I do find myself wondering why you pose the question as it would appear to be a "no-brainer". I understand that the calcs are usually done using a tool- I can tell you that on the mainline that is also the case even though they are a lot simpler.

Although I now work for WRSL, I am afraid I don't know much about DTG at all. I understand that in concept the "state of the railway" is broadcast and the trains have a "system map" on board and work out themselves how far / fast to proceed. I don't think that very many Transmission Based Signalling layouts have been offered by candidates and I have already prompted the examiners that they ought to start thinking how to mark a layout answered utilising ETCS. I think that they'd have little to compare your answer against (I am not saying they don't know what is right / wrong but that they may not have experience of what represents a decent atempt at the exam layout in exam conditions).

So don't worry too much about the detail. Think about how to use your 90minutes to demonstrate to the examiners your experience in applying DTG. Look at the percentage of the marks available for the different portions of the question and work out what allowance that gives you in terms of time you can expend. In particular then consider what you can do to demonstrate an UNDERSTANDING of braking and headway and how these constrain the signalling solution.

Perhaps you could explain to us what RORI, AIRI mean (do spell out the abbrieviations in the exam- I think that the first means "Run In / Run Out time" which is a measure of dwell time but I can't guess the other).
I suspect that braking is a responsibility of the trains- I do not know whether this affects scheme design directly or just needs to be taken into account when working out the headway which can be achieved.
What tyou need to do is distill that which is the ESSENCE of the calculations and state as bullet points all the assumptions / simplifications that you are having to make because you are doing the calculations long-hand in limited time.

I think that provided your answer demonstrates a high-level understanding with a good explanation that the examiners will be so pleased to get a Metro layout for once that if it looks half decent then you'd get a good mark.

This is a general message but probably particularly relevant to you and your problem; DON'T GET BOGGED DOWN IN DETAIL BUT ADDRESS THE WHOLE QUESTION, DEMONSTRATE YOUR GENERAL EXPERIENCE, AVOID THINGS THAT ARE OBVIOUSLY STUPID- you'll be alright.