Safety Authority confused

[mark bedford]

I've been reading YB+application notes, EN50126, ROGS, EU directives and seem to be getting more and more confused with may documents and terms from the ESM ideology.

To keep it simple it would be good if I could identify of who would typically do what in UK signalling project. Refering to Application Note 4 for YB Figure1;

Customer- Typically a ToC, could be the IM or a non railway company like Royal Mail.

Project- IM with their contractor i.e Network Rail using Westinghouse as their lead signalling contractor.

Safety Authority- I don't know who this is???

ISA organisation- Could still be NR if internal, otherwise a separate company approved by the notifying body i.e. Connell Wagner or Lloyds Registrar may have provided this service for projects I've been involved with. The ISA would work with the Project before the Project applies for approval to the Notifying Body.

Notifying Body- this would be the ORR giving Safety Authorisations as per the ROGs

Do I have this correct and what organisation would take on the Safety Authority?

Thanks for any help
Mark

[Peter]

Very good question and one that we appear not to have anyone weel versed enough to answer. I'll drop a note to someone whom I know would now and see if he is willing to pass on some information.

Peter

[MJB]

I've been reading YB+application notes, EN50126, ROGS, EU directives and seem to be getting more and more confused with may documents and terms from the ESM ideology.

To keep it simple it would be good if I could identify of who would typically do what in UK signalling project. Refering to Application Note 4 for YB Figure1;

Customer- Typically a ToC, could be the IM or a non railway company like Royal Mail.

Project- IM with their contractor i.e Network Rail using Westinghouse as their lead signalling contractor.

Safety Authority- I don't know who this is???

ISA organisation- Could still be NR if internal, otherwise a separate company approved by the notifying body i.e. Connell Wagner or Lloyds Registrar may have provided this service for projects I've been involved with. The ISA would work with the Project before the Project applies for approval to the Notifying Body.

Notifying Body- this would be the ORR giving Safety Authorisations as per the ROGs

Do I have this correct and what organisation would take on the Safety Authority?

Thanks for any help
Mark

In the UK the Safety Authority WAS the HMRI, as described in the Yellow Book, page 208.

The HMRI used to sit under the HSE, but transfered to the ORR, which in turn reports to the DfT. This transfer took place in 2006.

In May this year the HMRI ceased to exist and was renamed the Safety Directorate, even though the examiners retain the name HMRI.

This explains why in the Yellow Book Glossary (Page 232) is states the Safety Authority is the ORR.

The short answer is that in the UK, the safety authority is the ORR.

It is worth adding that a Notified Body is an organisation used to check that products are fit to be granted a safety certificate/authorisation.

The ORR is not itself a Notified Body.

A list of competent Notified Bodies are held by the ORR.

In practice most large rail companies have a spin-off company registered as a "NoBo" for saftey audit activities.

Hope this helps.

Mark

[bigcheese]

Hopefully this reply will work - there's alod of HTML stuff jsut underneath where I am typing.

Yes this is a problem - the ENs are somewhat dated and make certain assumptions about how the industry is strutured. they also try to impsoe duties on raiwlay authortiies, when in fact they are primarily used by the supply industry. They ARE being updated but this is not a quick process and the chances of them ever compelelty matching the railway world we find ourselves in is rather remote. That doesn't mean theya re no use it jsut means we need to be a bit creative and make sure that on any real proejct roles and responsibiltiies are explicitly clear regardless of what the standards say.

The other important point is that we are now living with the so called "shared system" in Europe and this has fundamentally changed responsibilities from those we were getting used to under ROGS. Soem thigns are still not clear and this forum is probably not the place to start an arguement as to the problems with the new regieme!

Lets have a go at expanding these definitions then - my comments are with a *:

Customer- Typically a ToC, could be the IM or a non railway company like Royal Mail.
* Not sure this is a term you will find in any EN - its the bloke paying the bill I think, but in a supply chain there are lots of these so it probably doesnt help much. BTW ToCs should now be referred to as Transport Undertaking.

Project- IM with their contractor i.e Network Rail using Westinghouse as their lead signalling contractor.
* yes, also called "contracting entity" under Interoperability regs

Safety Authority- I don't know who this is???
* it was the HMRI / ORR but under the latest regs each party is requried to have their own Safety Management System in place - there is no overall safety authority as imagined by the ENs (and ahem, common sense).

ISA organisation- Could still be NR if internal, otherwise a separate company approved by the notifying body i.e. Connell Wagner or Lloyds Registrar may have provided this service for projects I've been involved with. The ISA would work with the Project before the Project applies for approval to the Notifying Body.
* ISA and Nobo activities are not formally connected. NoBo is lookign for compliance to the TSIs (NoBos exist in all kinds of industries to demonstrate compliance to EU Directive and they must be independent of the contracting entitiy). ISA coudl be internal subject to the independence reqruiemenets laid down by the ENs (more risky or higher consequence, the more independence you need). the ISA is there is make a professional judgement about the safety argument for a specific situtation (and may employ techniques such as audit, insepction, testing, docuemtn review etc) to reach their conclusion. Oddly there arent any foraml requriements in any standards for ISAs (though NoBo is very well regulated). NR has (or had) its own scheme but this is not typcail of the world at large.

Notifying Body- this would be the ORR giving Safety Authorisations as per the ROGs
* NotifIED Body - are "notified" by the ORR on behalf of the UK government (differnt in different countries) as being competence to carry out compliance checks against the various TSIs under the Interoperabiltiy Directives. Nothing about risk assessment or adequancy of safety arguemnt - just compliance (albeit agaisnt some pretty complex stuff and inclduing the familiar ENs). NoBos issue certificaes of conformity - the CE marks that you see on your computer, high chair and pressure vessles. They can assess whole projects or interoperabiltiy constituents (for suppliers so that they can sell them to "system integrators") For reasons I can't fully expain you dont put CE marks on railway kit ( I suppose there is no obvisou palce to stick one).Nothing to do with Safety Authorisarions which is what ORR gives to Infrastrucutre Managers as a license to operate.

YB is trying to be independent of specific industry structure e.g it can also be used on LUL whcih is a whole differnt ballgame and overseas. Inevitably it ahs to make soem assumptions about hwo the world works and tends to lag behind the latest legislatoin not least because the latter keeps changing. For you interest I would recommend a look at the emerging Common Safety Methods from Europe that are likely to become increasingly important.

[Peter]

I asked a couple of colleagues from organisations who deal regularly with this area to have a look at the query here and here is some information passed on to me.

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